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Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute.
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"An Interview With Chuck Colson" (an article from the Interview
column of the Christian Research Newsletter, Volume 6: Number 2,
1993) by Hank Hanegraaff.
The editor of the Christian Research Newsletter is Ron
Rhodes.
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CRI president Hank Hanegraaff recently had the opportunity to
interview Chuck Colson about his new book, _The Body._ Following
are highlights of this interview.
*Hank:* _Chuck, you've written a landmark book entitled *The
Body.* I want you to get right to the point and communicate what
you're talking about when you speak of the "body" of the Lord Jesus
Christ._
*Chuck:* I'm talking about exactly what the Scripture talks
about. The "body" is the great cloud of witnesses, all those who
have been regenerated, all those who are called by God to be _His._
There is one body, of which Christ is the head. The Reformers
called it the invisible church that began with the beginning of
time.
*Hank:* _I know you agree with me that, ultimately, the
solution to our nation's problems will not come from our nation's
capital, but rather from our nation's churches. We have been called
to be salt and light in a lost and searching world, but it seems as
though the salt has lost its savor._
*Chuck:* Well, I think that's true. A Gallup poll found that
there was no difference in the ethical behavior of people who go to
church and people who _don't_ go to church. And so, one has to
conclude -- painful though it is -- that over the past decade in
American life, churches have made _very little_ difference in the
lives of people. As a matter of fact, polls taken among pastors
show that pastors themselves acknowledge that they aren't doing the
job they're supposed to do.
We live in a consumerist culture. People go to church to get a
spiritual fix. They pick the church they think will make them feel
the best, or that's closest to them, or that has a schedule that
best conforms with their plans for going to brunch on Sunday
morning. People are going to church for all the wrong reasons.
The church _should_ be a place to become equipped disciples --
to fulfill the Great Commission. Now, we're not doing that, and I
think that's self-evident today.
*Hank:* _We are a mirror reflection of the culture in which we
live, rather than transforming the culture._
*Chuck:* Yes. We have been "sucked in" by modern American
values. It's one of the great tragedies of our time.
*Hank:* _I think that political leaders, the Congress, and the
courts reflect the moral climate in which we live, and it is the
body of Christ that has to make the difference._
*Chuck:* If you go through history you will see that there has
never been a movement that has started from the _top down;_ it has
always started from the _bottom up._ When people's hearts and
values are changed, the politics and the structures of the society
will change accordingly. If you try to change the politics without
changing the hearts and minds of the people, you will end up doing
what we've done throughout the eighties -- which is to win a lot of
political victories, a lot of political battles, and lose the
cultural war.
*Hank:* _What's the solution?_
*Chuck:* Well, Luther once said: "Let the church _be_ the
church." And that means that Christians must first of all recognize
that they are part of this body. We are not lone rangers.
Eighty-one percent of the American people say they can find
religious truth _apart from_ a church or synagogue -- which means
they believe in "do-it-yourself" God kits.
As someone said in response to a Gallup poll, "I am my own
church." But you _can't_ be your own church. Christians are part of
a body. It's a community of faith. The witness that God intended
for the world is a _community_ witness. The kingdom of God is to be
_made visible_ through the body of Christ. You cannot fulfill the
Great Commission apart from the church.
*Hank:* _So you're saying that the church is the God-ordained
means for evangelism?_
*Chuck:* It is the God-ordained means for evangelism, for
discipleship, and for witnessing of the kingdom. It is the only
institution supernaturally endowed by God. It is the _one_
institution of which Jesus promised that the gates of hell will
not prevail against it.
*Hank:* _We have been called to be ambassadors of Christ. Most
of us are secret agents -- and we've never "blown our cover" before
the unregenerate world. Most of the time what we are doing is
allowing the pastor to do most of the work for us, as opposed to
the pastor equipping God's people for works of service so that the
body of Christ may indeed be built up and strengthened._
*Chuck:* I'm _so_ glad you said that! We have a completely
distorted view of the church. We think it is a place that you go as
a spectator to watch the pastor perform. And you spend the rest of
the week criticizing what he did on Sunday morning.
_It's not that at all!_ If you read Ephesians 4, the job of the
pastor is to equip the saints so that when the saints come together
in their congregations -- for worship, for the study of the Word,
for the celebration of the sacraments, for discipline and
accountability -- they are being _discipled_ by that pastor and
equipped for works of service in the world. And by being equipped
they can be the light and the salt that influences the world. This
is the _whole_ purpose of the church. The task of the church, as
I've described it in my book, is to be a _place of equipping._
I compare it to my experience in the Marines. I was a
lieutenant in the Marines during the Korean War. And that was a
very dangerous time. Fifty percent of the Marine lieutenants being
commissioned then were coming back in pine boxes. And so, when I
went to basic training, let me tell you, I became "equipped" for
eighteen hours a day -- going over that obstacle course,
disassembling my rifle, assembling it blindfolded, engaging in
night maneuvers, going under barbed wire, learning to survive live
artillery shells, and memorizing the Marine handbook. Why? Because
I was going into combat, and I was going to have fifty lives in my
hands.
Should we be any less serious about the equipping and
disciplining of the church? _No!_ We're in spiritual combat --
cosmic combat for the heart and soul of humankind. We ought to
treat it just as seriously as I treated preparing to be a Marine
lieutenant in the Korean War.
*Hank:* _When we talk about equipping, so often we think of
equipping in terms of evangelism. But equipping is a whole lot more
than that, as you demonstrate so wonderfully in this book._
*Chuck:* The Great Commission is far more than evangelism. I
think many evangelicals have a very simplistic view of what it is
that God is calling us to do. _Of course_ it is to proclaim the
Gospel. _Of course_ it is to share the Good News. But the Great
Commission is to _make disciples,_ "teaching them _all_ I have
taught you" (Matt. 28:20).
*Hank:* _Let me raise another issue. There seems to be this
invincible ignorance in the body of Christ today that size means
correctness, or size relates to orthodoxy, or size means that God's
hand is blessing the church. And nothing could be further from the
truth. Size does not determine orthodoxy._
*Chuck:* No! And size is not a measure of success, either.
_Faithfulness_ is the measure of success. Biblical fidelity is the
measure of success.
Now, there are cases in the Book of Acts, as you well know,
where the church grew dramatically. _But,_ you'll notice that it
_always_ grew as a direct result of a fear of God. Can you imagine
some church-growth experts walking in to a pastor's office and
saying, "I've got a formula for building your church. Preach on the
fear of God." I mean, no way, they'd tell you. They'd say, "Tell
the people what they want to hear. Go out and find out what their
perceived needs are and meet those needs." Truth is always the
casualty when technique becomes supreme. That's what happens.
*Hank:* _Chuck, I'm going to switch gears and ask you about the
ministry you founded which is having a tremendous impact, not only
here in the United States, but worldwide as well. It's called
Prison Fellowship._
*Chuck:* It's just amazing what God has done through my prison
experiences. When I got out of prison I really thought I'd go back
and practice law quietly. I was writing a little book called _Born
Again._ The last thing I wanted was to go into Christian service.
I had had enough public life -- four years in the White House, two
years in the middle of the biggest political upheaval in American
history, and then seven months in prison. I just wanted to go home
and be with my kids and take life easy.
But I felt God's call to ministry. And I wrestled for a full
year with God. I did not _want_ to do this. But I was convicted.
This is what He wanted of my life, and we started a little
ministry. Six of us sat in a circle -- three ex-convicts, and three
who "hadn't been caught" -- and prayed that God would use us. And
from that has grown a ministry today with almost 50,000 volunteers
working in America.
About 50,000 inmates went through our various training programs
last year in the United States. We're now in 54 countries around
the world. I just came back from Seoul, Korea, where I had one of
the most exciting weeks of my life with people from the former
Soviet Union who had been converted through reading one of my books
-- and _who had begun to preach in the prisons._
As well, there was a former prisoner in Ethiopia who had built
a church _inside_ the prison with 3,200 inmates. Then they were
released because the Marxist government was overthrown, and all of
his captors were put in prison -- _where he's now evangelizing
them,_ and has 500 in the church.
These kinds of things are happening all over the world. And the
most exciting thing to me, frankly, is that I did not engineer any
of this. Some of the most exciting reports are coming from
countries I haven't been to. And I love it, because I know it's
_God's_ move and not mine.
*Hank:* _Chuck, one final question. I want you to communicate
to our readers how they can have an eternal perspective._
*Chuck:* Well, I'm a few years older than you are, Hank, and
have been through more of a roller coaster in my life. I've seen
the utter vanity of those moments of power and triumph in life. And
I can really identify with the Book of Ecclesiastes, which speaks
of "vanity of vanities" and "striving after the wind." How empty so
many things of this world are!
At 39 years old, I was sitting in the office next to the
President of the United States, looking out on the manicured green
lawns of the White House. This was the American dream fulfilled.
But despite all that power, I was empty.
Over the last 20 years, I've lived as a Christian and I _know_
what fulfillment is. I mean, I've been through cancer surgery, I've
been to prison, and I've had my tough experiences. But I wouldn't
trade the _worst_ day of the last 20 years for the _best_ day of
the 40 years that preceded that. And I guess as you get older --
I'm closer to that day when I'll meet the King than you are -- the
more you begin to realize that the _only_ thing in life that
matters is a relationship with Christ.
_If you are interested in learning more about Prison
Fellowship, you can write: Prison Fellowship Ministries, P.O. Box
17500, Washington, DC 20041-0500._
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End of document, CRN0057A.TXT (original CRI file name),
"An Interview With Chuck Colson"
release A, July 15, 1994
R. Poll, CRI
(A special note of thanks to Bob and Pat Hunter for their help in
the preparation of this ASCII file for BBS circulation.)
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