---------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 1994 by Return to God. ---------------------------------------------------------------- COPYRIGHT/REPRODUCTION LIMITATIONS: This data file is the sole property of Return to God. It may not be altered or edited in any way. It maybe reproduced only in its entirety for circulation as "freeware,"without charge. All reproductions of this data file must contain the copyright notice (i.e., "Copyright 1994 by Return to God"). This data file may not be used without the permission of Return to God for resale or the enhancement of any other product sold. This includes all of its content with the exception of a few brief quotations not to exceed more than 500 words. If you desire to reproduce less than 500 words of this data filefor resale or the enhancement of any other product for resale, please give the following source credit: Copyright 1994 by Return to God, P.O. Box 159, Carnation, WA 98014. ----------------------------------------------------------------- For more information, contact Return to God, P.O. Box 159, Carnation, WA 98014-0159; email: glenna@halcyon.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Messianic Movement Re-establishes Christian Roots", an interview with Saul Wallach (an article from Return to God Magazine, Volume 1 Number 3, page 3). When this article was written, Saul Wallach was a Messianic Rabbi of Congregation Emmaus, a Messianic Congregation. Congregation Emmaus' Meeting Facility: 124 Plaza, 1600 124th Avenue NE, Bellevue, WA 98005 (206) 454-0177; Office: 515 116th Avenue NE Suite 225, Bellevue,WA 98005 (206) 454-9958. ----------------------------------------------------------------- The Messianic movement is restoring the Jewish roots of the Christian faith and is leading Jewish people to their Messiah, Yeshua (Jesus). The Messianic community has experienced tremendous growth as Jews and non- Jews are coming together to worship God in the ways of the first century Christians. Rabbi Saul Wallach has been ministering to the needs of the Messianic community in the northwest for over ten years. In the following interview, Rabbi Saul describes Messianic theology and worship. WHAT IS A MESSIANIC CHURCH ALL ABOUT? It's a congregational setting based on the early church, which was a synagogue. All of our worship comes from a synagogue format given with the inspiration of the Living God. We try to be lead by the Holy Spirit and have some of the traditional Jewish aspects of worship that lend themselves to meeting with the Living God. These traditions are based on Scripture. Most of the things that we do in our congregation Yeshua (Jesus) did when He was on earth. The Messianic movement is a world-wide movement that is a reclamation of the desire to know the roots of our faith of Christianity -- and as you know, those roots are Jewish. We incorporate a lot of these Jewish traditions, not to take the place of Jesus, but to enhance our relationship -- to give us inspiration. We really have a twofold mission: to show the Jewish people the Jewishness of Jesus and to show the Gentile people how Jewish our Messiah really is. The Messianic congregation is evolving and there are different forms of worship, based on what the Holy Spirit is doing in a particular location. There are some similarities between Messianic congregations, especially in some of the liturgy, like the famous Shema prayer and the call to worship, the Barchu. Those prayers will probably be very familiar all over the world, as part of Synagogue liturgy. Our Lord Himself probably said those prayers. So as we go through our service, there's an understanding of the Lord doing these things and also the meaning behind these things. Obviously the foundation is Jesus. WHAT WILL A PERSON COMING FROM A FUNDAMENTALIST PROTESTANT CHURCH TO YOUR CHURCH EXPERIENCE THAT'S DIFFERENT? CAN YOU ALSO EXPLAIN THE SAME EXPERIENCE, FOR A JEWISH PERSON COMING FROM A SYNAGOGUE? From a Protestant background, the similarities will be some of the praise and worship. Theologically, we shouldn't be any different than a Protestant situation. The difference that might be a little bit misunderstood is the Jewish background -- the roots. We're trying to show the Jewishness of the faith. What the Protestant person will see that might be somewhat uncomfortable is some of the teaching from a Jewish perspective where we might say, for example, we love the Torah, we love the law. Obviously, David said that and also Jews from the first century. We see this as a fulfillment of Scripture, Jesus fulfilling the law. So what some people might see as legalism is something that we are doing out of a heartfelt desire because we see the fulfillment of it. From a Jewish perspective, what might be shocking is seeing people that profess to be Jewish who believe in Jesus as the Messiah. If you walk in our congregation, things that will be very familiar, very comfortable to a Jewish person are the Torah, the Arc and the Eternal Lamp. This is something they will have in a synagogue situation. We have it too. The thing that we're saying is that Jesus is Lord and that will be just radical for them. For both Protestant and Jews, the Messianic dance is something that has been reclaimed from the time of David. There hasn't been a revival of Messianic dance until now. We have that revival happening and that will be a little bit shocking for both Protestants and Jews -- to see the joy there, to see the dance before the Lord. WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND SIMILARITIES BETWEEN MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANS TODAY AND FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS? The similarities would be the love for the Lord. In modern Christianity, the love would be the same -- loving your neighbor; the kind of things that would be characterized as fruits. Differences -- obviously cultural; we always bend to the culture. The early Christian mind would have been more of a Hebraic culture, especially the early founders. The disciples would have had a Hebraic mind set and not this Greco mind set. Today, unfortunately what's happened is a Helenized version of Christianity. Our culture basically molds Christianity after what we desire. Our needs are to be met in or through our religion. From the faith movement to liberal Christianity, those two extremes have people molding their Messiah around their own needs and their own thinking and their own culture, where in the early congregation it was impossible to do that. You had a mind-set that was Hebraic. There were certain ways that you walked and it wasn't molding your own desires around your religion or your religion around your own desires. To early Christians it was their nature. It was part of their culture, part of who they were. Today we don't really have that kind of understanding. In our mind we separate out things. We compartmentalize. We put our religion in this box and put our vacation in another box. Early Christians wouldn't do that at all. It was their life. DO YOU TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY? We do take it literally and you will find that throughout the Messianic movement. In the Messianic movement you find various backgrounds, but over all, 100% of people believe that this is the Word of God. What I mean by different backgrounds is you might find people that come from an Orthodox Jewish background, a Conservative Reform or from a mainline denominational background. Throughout the movement the Bible is taken literally as the truth. IS IT A REQUIREMENT OF THE MESSIANIC MOVEMENT THAT AN INDIVIDUAL ACCEPT YESHUA (JESUS) AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR IN ORDER TO ABIDE WITH GOD ETERNALLY? That is a definite part of our relationship. Yeshua is the only way. He's the only way to the truth. We have to follow Him or we will end up in separation. There are basically only two ways after life. Either you're with Him for eternity or you're separated from Him. Either you turn your soul over to Him or you turn your soul over to Hell and the enemy of life. From a Jewish perspective, it's the same. In their thinking the way is the question. We know as Jews who believe in Jesus, that the way is Jesus. The orthodox Jews will go along with separation; that there is a separation from God if you commit bad deeds -- if you do things that are against the Torah (the five books of Moses); but the Jews' understanding of reaching eternity with God is through doing good works. Our understanding is the only way is through Jesus. So, to a Jew, if you do not do good works you will end up on a different level, which might not be hell in their thinking. You see in their thinking you have different levels of ascension to reach the Lord. For those who keep all the commandments, they'll be with the Lord in Heaven. If you've kept only so many commandments, but not all of them -- you really tried, you're really a good person, but you didn't keep all of them -- you'll get to another level. It's like a ladder. It's like a corporation -- climbing the ladder. In our understanding, that would totally be false. That would lend itself to all kinds of heresy and a hierarchy of theology, the hierarchy of relationship. Through deeds rather than through grace. THIS POINT ABOUT HELL OR THIS SEPARATION; CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THIS SEPARATION ENTAILS? We have a good description in Revelation. It will be a place not only of being separated, but pain and suffering; a place of non-relationship with anyone. I explain it as being totally scattered from all kinds of feelings, emotions and spirit. It's being lost; there's no connectedness -- where with the Lord you're connected forever. It's totally opposite; you do have relationship. YOU WILL STILL HAVE YOUR DESIRES BUT YOU WON'T HAVE ANY MANNER IN WHICH TO FULFILL THEM? Total separation from fulfillment of any kind. It will be like coming to a table full of these good things -- and there's no way you can partake of it and you have no idea why. Those emotions, those feelings -- it's being scattered from everything. IF YESHUA CAME BACK TODAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK HIS FIRST WORDS WOULD BE REGARDING THE STATE OF MANKIND? I think the cover of your magazine probably states it best "Return to the Lord" -- make that teshuvah, repent, return. HAVE YOU EVER WITNESSED A DOCUMENTED MIRACLE? Yes. There have been many cases where we've had prayer for people and things have happened that nature or this physical world cannot explain. I'm always excited to see that; a little surprised -- I probably shouldn't be. The Lord is always faithful in that way, where He works those kinds of miracles within people's lives. We've had people healed from cancer -- where they've been diagnosed with cancer and we've prayed with them and they went back to the doctor and nothing was found. Things like heart murmurs, arteries that were closed up and we prayed and there was some healing. Also, things that might seem ordinary to people -- jobs, healing in marriages. That's a major miracle; people don't perceive that as a miracle. I've seen marriages healed through prayer. God is alive! He's doing these kinds of things. It's not always what we would expect, but He's a God who fulfills our needs in a way that will be best for us. IS SATAN AN ACTUAL PERSON OR PERSONALITY? WHAT ABOUT DEMONS AND THEIR ABILITY TO AFFECT PEOPLE IN A REAL, PHYSICAL SENSE? Yes. There's no doubt about it. I would say more of the personality aspect than the actual person. You're dealing with the spirit world, this enemy of God. He will try to dissuade people from belief and action. These things manifest themselves, they might even seem normative, but really it is the action of the enemy, or Satan, within our lives. He knows what buttons to push, he knows what kinds of things dissuade us. Those kinds of things probably happen in everybody's lives, but we just kind of brush it aside as coincidental. There are greater manifestations of it also, where people are actually possessed by a demon spirit. HAVE YOU ENCOUNTERED DEMON SPIRITS? Yes. It's not a place that you want to be, but it's something that happens in this world. If we believe that God's alive, there's an enemy that is trying to dissuade us and to inflict pain and suffering on people. These spirits are doing this work. We have to be very aware of it. It really does happen today. Probably the greatest witness to people is the understanding that there is evil. That was one of the things that brought me to relationship with the Lord. It brings many people to relationship with the Lord -- the understanding that there is evil within this world and there is the manifest personality of spirit that is against God. CAN YOU DESCRIBE A SITUATION WHERE YOU CONFRONTED A DEMONIC ENTITY? I'll give you an example of what happened in one particular case. It was a normative type of situation where we were asked to pray for this person and all of a sudden there was this manifestation -- it wasn't too out of the ordinary, but you knew something was wrong. There was this different tone of voice and I really, personally received a word from the Lord that something was terribly wrong with this individual. We began to pray, and as we began praying, we began to ask some questions. This different voice explained some things and said some things. I asked if they had a different name, and they said yes, they had a different name. It wasn't one of these things that you see in the movies where everybody's getting thrown all over the room and that sort of thing, but it was something where this person was possessed by a different spirit. So we prayed in the name of Jesus, there was the naming of Jesus over this person's life, the blood covering and asking for the spirit to be loosed out of this person's life and bound away from this person. SO PEOPLE DON'T NEED TO BE AFRAID OF THESE SPIRITS, JUST BE AWARE OF THEM AND KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THE SITUATION. Right. I believe that the Lord will give understanding because of the sensitivity we have through the Holy Spirit. So being very sensitive to what's going on with a person, ask the right questions and pray for the person. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM OR PROBLEMS FACING PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY? I think it really isn't any different than it was during the time of Jesus. There's more of a manifestation of it because of our technology and because we have probably the most prosperous country in the world. The problem is the lack of giving our whole lives to the Lord. In America, there are so many things that take away our time -- TV, material things, things that would seem to be easily enough done, but then we get into a project and it takes up all of our time. I think the most consuming thing is lack of time with God -- the lack of time sitting down with God. We are being consumed by the world, consumed by material things, what our neighbors might want us to do, or even our family and friends. Where's our focus? In actuality, these things are not wrong, but what is our focus. What is the number one thing in our lives? That dates back to the time of Jesus and before. Obviously with our modern technology and sped-up lifestyles there's even less time -- and that leads to the family being fragmented and dissuaded from loving each other and helping each other. We need to sit down. We need to abide. That's what the Hebrew means when it says "to abide". The Hebrew means "to sit". Just to sit and be with the Lord. IF THERE WAS JUST ONE THING YOU WOULD LIKE OUR READERS TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR CHURCH, WHAT WOULD THAT BE? I think the joy of relationship is something that we try to have understood and passed on to other people during our service times and during our relationship outside of the congregation. The joy and the strength which that brings and the celebration of that joy. I would like people to know that there is joy and there is a relationship that is full of power and love. WHEN YOU SAY "JOY", WHAT IS JOY TO A CHRISTIAN? Joy in the Hebrew would be either simcha or rinah. Both words explain what joy really is. Simcha, in this context, is religious joy, where you're in a situation and you're worshipping God, your whole frame, body, soul and spirit manifest joy and you know it -- that's a time of simcha! DO YOU FEEL A PEACE OR A CALMNESS? Yes, I think all of that, but it's more of an understanding, a trust relationship. Understanding that God is in control. This other word, rinah probably explains it a little bit better. Rinah means a joy that creaks up within you. It's kind of like you're an old creaky vessel and all of a sudden some oil gets poured on you and you're not creaking anymore, you're starting to move really well and all of a sudden you're bubbling up. That's what the Hebrew is -- rinah. It's a bubbling up of joy and this manifestation of it happens when we lift up the Lord, when we forget about the outside world. We don't look to the left or the right and all of a sudden this old creaky vessel begins to work wonderfully. You feel like you're on the right track. You know God's in control ultimately anyway and so you realize things aren't quite so bad. The Lord is in charge. God is in control. Let me worship Him and enjoy Him forever. It's the chief end of man to glorify God and worship Him forever.